Talking Points – Gay rights and civil rights.
| Anti-Marriage Equality Position: | Pro-Marriage Equality Position: |
| Gay rights are not civil rights. | Though the movements are different, there are enough points of intersection to justify calling gay rights civil rights. |
| Broadly stated, opposition to calling gay rights civil rights is two parts bias (“homosexuality is sinful and immoral”) and one part resentment (of white people claiming to be oppressed). | |
| Homosexuality is immoral. |
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| Race is not a matter of choice, nor is it a moral issue. Sexual behavior is. It’s inappropriate at best, and insulting at worst, to compare gay rights to civil rights. | It is not okay to qualify equality under the law. If that had been allowed in the civil rights movement, we’d still be stuck in an era of segregation. |
| It’s okay to oppress or deny rights to a group if the majority believes they are immoral. | “Majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities and dissenters — whether ethnic, religious, or simply the losers in political debate.” — The U.S. State Dept. |
| It’s ridiculous for white people to claim to be oppressed. |
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| Black people have had it worse. (White) gay people comparing themselves to the situation trivializes it and demeans black people. | The question is not magnitude of suffering. The question is, does a majority have the right to strip or deny rights from a minority group? |
| Marriage equality is a white issue. Alternative: Marriage equality has been hijacked by white activists. | Equal rights under the law, and freedom from discrimination, have no color; they are for all citizens.
It’s true, though, white activists are frequently insensitive to communities of color, and that needs to be addressed. |
Quote From Julian Bond, Chairman of the NAACP, Why Gay Rights Are Civil Rights
- Interview with Julian Bond in which he discusses gay rights
- A montage of speeches pertaining to gay civil rights, with a powerful opening statement from John Lewis, D-Georgia
- Nichelle Nichols on GLBT Rights
- Yolanda King, daughter of MLK and Coretta Scott King, addressing the Human Rights Campaign
References
Additional Reading
Additional Videos
- Jon Stewart and The Daily Show look at “Gays vs. Blacks”
Main anti-marriage equality position:
Gay rights are not civil rights.
Main pro-marriage equality response:
The gay rights movement is not the same as the civil rights movement, and the gay experience is fundamentally different from the experience of racial minorities, but there are crucial points of intersection. Gay rights are civil rights.
An increasingly common expression is “gay is the new black.” There’s truth to the sentiment, but not enough that we can make the statement unqualified.
Gay is the new black in only one meaningful way. At present we are the most socially acceptable targets for the kind of casual hatred that American society once approved for habitual use against black people. (1)
We must be very clear what we mean: When I say gay rights are civil rights, there are four underlying statements – two that I am purposefully making, and two that I seem to be making but am not.
- I AM recognizing that this is an argument that unfortunately pits religion against secular government. I don’t care what a person’s faith tells them about gay people. That’s their business, not mine. I care about the rights I have under the laws of a civil government. Those are civil rights.
- I AM taking inspiration from the civil rights movement. It’s terrible that the civil rights movement even had to happen, but it did, and it’s a powerful episode of American history. It is inspiring and serves as a model to a similar-but-different scenario for the GLBT community today.
One of the strengths of the black civil rights movement is that it’s served as a model for so many other movements. We who have suffered so much should also be the most compassionate. — Henry Louis Gates, Jr, the chair of African and African American Studies at Harvard University (2)
- I am NOT comparing my experience to black people. I have no idea what it’s like to be black in our culture. I can’t even make the blanket statement, I know what it’s like to be a minority, because my experience of minority-ness is based in something completely different than a black person’s.
- I am NOT creating a gay-is-white, black-is-straight dichotomy. At least, I’m trying not to! An entire segment of the population lives in both communities. The gay rights and civil rights movements have overlap not just in moral imperative but in actual demographics.
- Statement #1: Race is not a choice nor a moral issue.
Skin color or ethnicity involves no moral choices . . . but how you conduct yourself sexually does. — Robert Knight, Director of the Culture & Family Institute, an affiliate of Concerned Women for America (3)
- Statement #2: It’s okay to deny rights to a group if the majority believes they are immoral. Alternative: It’s okay to qualify equality under the law according to different standards for different groups.
I do not consider [gays] to be a minority in legal and adjudicated terms, the same way people who only like to eat broccoli with butter aren’t a minority. We can’t categorize things according to behavior. It’s based on ethnicity, on who we are rather than what we do.
Who am I to say that you weren’t born that way … [but] sexual activity, what you do, who you sleep with, is your business. – Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, President of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference (4)
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Anti-Marriage Equality Sub-Position: Homosexuality is immoral:
Pro-marriage equality counter-response A:
First, I have to comment – Rev. Rodriguez’s comments are disingenuous when he says it’s about “who we are rather than what we do.” The two are functions are each other. Culture is a system of activities and traditions that both create, and derive from, intrinsic identity. A crucial component of the civil rights movement is not just protecting racial minorities from discrimination (freedom from), it’s also ensuring they have the right to live their lives in a manner of their own choosing and to celebrate their own culture without infringement (freedom to).
All that Reverend Rodriguez is really saying is that ethnicity counts when it comes to equal rights, and homosexuality does not.
The morality or immorality of homosexuality is typically based in a religious perspective. Please visit my Biblical Self-Defense For GLBT People page for more information on that line of attack.
Instead, I want to focus my response on a key question:
Does a majority have the right to strip or deny rights from a minority group?
As Winston Churchill said, “Democracy is the worst form of government, except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.” Democracy comes with its own failings against which we must guard. That’s why the separation of powers exist and why the Constitution created an independent judiciary.
One of those failings is the possibility of tyranny by the majority.
Majority rule, by itself, is not automatically democratic. No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority.
In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities and dissenters — whether ethnic, religious, or simply the losers in political debate. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the good will of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens. — The U.S. Department of State (5)
In fact, if the civil rights movement has taught us anything, it’s that the majority cannot be trusted to ensure the rights of a minority group, especially when the majority looks down on the minority. In the question of gay rights, many blacks align with conservative whites to look down on gay people; in this question, they become part of the majority culture.
If the KKK would oppose gay marriage, I would ride with them. — Reverend Gregory Daniels, an African American (6)
Comments like that shock me. The shortsidedness of trying to “own” equality under the law puzzles me.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. — Martin Luther King, Jr.
His wife, Coretta Scott King, has been even more pointed in her remarks:
Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. (7)
Anti-miscegenation laws were based on a “moral” perspective on the world and race relations, but I don’t think anyone would call them moral today. Every racist act and practice since the beginning of slavery has been packaged and sold as a moral argument, and wrapped with a pretty little bow of Biblical scripture.
Scripture can be a source of tremendous wisdom, but it can also be dangerous when wielded as a weapon, and it was – by white people against black people. Segregation and anti-miscegenation laws forced black people to conform to white people’s standards of “decency.”
Legal statutes like Proposition 8 force gay people to conform in a similar way.
If black people had settled for conforming to the majority’s idea of moral, we would still be stuck in an era of segregation. Thank goodness they did not.
Blacks insist that there’s absolutely no way you can compare a state barring same-sex marriage to the centuries of slavery and the near century of relentless racial violence and apartheid like discrimination laws they’ve suffered. But this is a terribly, lop-sided, and self-serving read of history. It also ignores or denies the fact that gays have been murdered, socially stigmatized, and have suffered gender Jim Crow like discrimination in America and countless other countries.
In creating a pecking order of oppression, a kind of my oppression is worse than yours, blacks can then pick and choose when and where they will fight discrimination, or worse, to denigrate another group deemed less worthy of support their battle against in discrimination. This is foolhardy, and irresponsible. (8)
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Anti-Marriage Equality Sub-Position: It’s ridiculous for white people to claim to be oppressed:
Statement #1: Black people have had it worse.
Opposition to gay marriage in the black community tends to follow the narrative that discrimination against gays is trivial or even acceptable. Therefore, gay marriage cannot be a civil rights issue. It is true that the demand for civil rights for gays is not the same as the demands for civil rights for black people. (9)
Response #1: When it comes to rights under the law, the question is not magnitude of suffering.
Nadine Smith, the Executive Director of Equality Florida (she’s a black lesbian), puts it nicely:
I’ve experienced racism, sexism and homophobia. And the worst one is whatever one you’re dealing with right now. (10)
Frankly, I’m perfectly willing to concede the point, with the understanding “that doesn’t discount the hardships of other groups” (11).
No, this whole question distracts us from the central issue at hand, which is the same as the last argument – does a majority have the right to strip or deny rights from a minority group?
Click here to read that section again.
Statement #2: Marriage equality is a white issue that’s been hijacked by white activists.
I don’t ever want to see a white gay man stand before a camera again and equate his struggle to the black civil rights movement. — Jasmyne Cannick, Board Member of the National Black Justice Coalition, a black LGBTQ civil rights organization. (12)
Response #2: Marriage equality is about equal treatment before the law. It has no color.
Julian Bond, the Chairman of the NAACP, says:
‘Civil rights’ are positive legal prerogatives — the right to equal treatment before the law. These are rights shared by all — there is no one in the United States who does not — or should not — share in these rights. Gay and lesbian rights are not ‘special rights’ in any way. It isn’t ‘special’ to be free from discrimination — it is an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship.
For some, comparisons between the African-American civil rights movement and the movement for gay and lesbian rights seem to diminish the long black historical struggle with all its suffering, sacrifices and endless toil. However, people of color ought to be flattered that our movement has provided so much inspiration for others (13).
That being said, white activists have not always been sensitive to communities of color, and that needs to be addressed.
Cannick, like many African-American LGBTQ people, does see the marriage equality struggle as a civil rights issue. But she resents the unchecked white privilege of white queer organizations and activists using the term as analogous to the black civil rights movement without a dialogue with the entire LGBTQ community about it—in order to ascertain how the marriage debate should be framed. (14)
All I can say is, I agree. More dialogue, engagement and consensus-building is called for. We need to understand some ways that we can frame the conversation to be more respectful and inclusive of communities of color.
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Quote From Julian Bond, Chairman of the NAACP, Why Gay Rights Are Civil Rights
[Julian Bond] began his remarks with two quotes from the late Coretta Scott King, who said back in 1998,
Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.” In 2000 she added: “We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say ‘common struggle’ because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender or ethnic discrimination.
Bond then continued:
That’s why when I am asked, ‘Are gay rights civil rights?’ my answer is always, “Of course they are.’ ‘Civil rights’ are positive legal prerogatives — the right to equal treatment before the law. These are rights shared by all — there is no one in the United States who does not — or should not — share in these rights. Gay and lesbian rights are not ‘special rights’ in any way. It isn’t ‘special’ to be free from discrimination — it is an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship. The right not to be discriminated against is a common-place claim we all expect to enjoy under our laws and our founding document, the Constitution. That many had to struggle to gain these rights makes them precious – it does not make them special, and it does not reserve them only for me or restrict them from others.
When others gain these rights, my rights are not reduced in any way. The more civil rights are won by others, the stronger the army defending my rights becomes. My rights are not diluted when my neighbor enjoys protection from the law — he or she becomes my ally in defending the rights we all share.
For some, comparisons between the African-American civil rights movement and the movement for gay and lesbian rights seem to diminish the long black historical struggle with all its suffering, sacrifices and endless toil. However, people of color ought to be flattered that our movement has provided so much inspiration for others, that it has been so widely imitated, and that our tactics, methods, heroines and heroes, even our songs, have been appropriated by or served as models for others.
No parallel between movements for rights is exact. African-Americans are the only Americans who were enslaved for more than two centuries, and people of color carry the badge of who we are on our faces. But we are far from the only people suffering discrimination — sadly, so do many others. They deserve the law’s protections and civil rights, too. (15)
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Interview with Julian Bond in which he discusses gay rights:
A montage of speeches pertaining to gay civil rights, with a powerful opening statement from John Lewis, D-Georgia:
Nichelle Nichols on GLBT Rights:
Yolanda King, daughter of MLK and Coretta Scott King, addressing the Human Rights Campaign (24:51 minutes):
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(1) Gross, Michael Joseph. “Pride and Prejudice.” The Advocate. 16 December 2008, p 32. The article can be found online at http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid65744.asp (as of 29 November 2008).
(2) Deggans, Eric. “Gay Rights/Civil Rights.” The St. Petersburg Times. 18 January 2004. http://www.sptimes.com/2004/01/18/Columns/Gay_rightscivil_rights.shtml (retrieved 29 November 2008).
(3) Ibid.
(4) Washington, Jesse. “Is gay the new black? Marriage ban spurs debate.” The Associated press. 30 November 2008. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i-e9Hd1B5Fe4p7g_Njtb80yTSP0AD94PCNBO0 (retrieved 30 November 2008).
(5) Cincotta, Howard. “Democracy Matters.” U.S. Department of State. February 2008. http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/democracy-in-brief/characteristics.htm (p. 7; retrieved 29 November 2008).
(6) Kimberley, Margaret. “Freedom Rider: Gay Rights, Civil Rights.” The Black Commentator, Issue 110. 21 October 24. http://www.blackcommentator.com/110/110_fr_gay_civil_rights.html (retrieved 29 November 2008).
(7) Keleher, Terry. “Gay Rights and Civil Rights.” RaceWire.com. 19 February 2008. http://www.racewire.org/archives/2008/02/gay_rights_and_civil_rights.html (retrieved 29 November 2008).
(8) Hutchison, Earl Ofari. “Gay Marriage Is A Civil Rights Issue.” Black America Today. 22 December 2003. http://www.blackamericatoday.com/article.cfm?ArticleID=296 (retrieved 29 November 2008)
(9) Kimberley, Ibid.
(10) Deggans, Ibid.
(11) Lee-St. John, Jeninne. “Viewpoint: Civil Rights and Gay Rights.” Time. 25 October 2005. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1121811,00.html (retrieved 29 November 2008).
(12) Monroe, Irene. “Defining the movement for same-sex marriage.” The Advocate. 15 February 2005. The text can be found at http://www.irenemonroe.com/2005/02/15/defining-the-movement-for-same-sex-marriage/
(13) Keleher, Ibid.
(14) Monroe, Ibid.
(15) Keleher, Ibid.
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Editorial. “A civil right.” The Times of Trenton. 30 November 2008. http://www.nj.com/opinion/times/editorials/index.ssf?/base/news-0/12280215779560.xml&coll=5 (retrieved 1 December 2008).
Bates, Karen Grigsby. “Racial divisions challenge gay rights movement.” NPR. 4 December 2008. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97826119 (retrieved 4 December 2008). A look at the black community’s tendency to dissociate gay rights from civil rights, and the awkward position in which that leaves black gay people.
Blow, Charles M. “Gay marriage and a moral minority.” The New York Times. 29 November 2008. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/opinion/29blow.html?ref=opinion (retrieved 1 December 2008). A fantastic and thought-provoking opinion piece offering theories why blacks, especially black women, tend not to support marriage equality and what can be done about it.
Burroway, Jim. “Rep. John Lewis: ‘You cannot separate the issue of civil rights.’” Box Turtle Bulletin. 19 January 2009. http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/01/19/8179 (retrieved 21 January 2009). Rep. Lewis gets it.
Indio, Michael Ace. “Letter to the editor: Stop the nonsense on same-sex marriage.” The Desert Sun, 13 December 2008. http://www.mydesert.com/article/20081213/OPINION02/812130327/-1/newsfront (retrieved 13 December 2008). Indio supports marriage equality, but thinks its unreasonable to compare gay rights to civil rights. He says, “Do not bring up the names Martin Luther King and Ceasar Chavez” to support your movement. My response, as above: civil rights – that is, rights under the law – do not “belong” to any particular group, nor does the wisdom or inspiration of great leaders.
Matt. “No more, no less: Stop the competition.” Interstate Q, 12 December 2008. http://www.interstateq.com/archives/3055/ (retrieved 13 December 2008). So often the conversation whether gay rights are civil rights devolves into a sort of competition: whose suffering is greater? Matt argues, you can’t quantify the suffering of two different minority communities. They are qualitatively different.
Monroe, Irene. “Gay is not the new black.” The Huffington Post. 16 December 2008. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/irene-monroe/gay-is-emnotem-the-new-bl_b_151573.html (retrieved 20 December 2008). She makes some excellent points, but I would argue she’s throwing out the baby with the bathwater in arguing that gay rights and civil rights are completely separate. She seems (justifiably) very concerned about racism and privilege within the marriage equality community, but is that enough to dismiss a comparison between oppressed peoples?
Patton, Stacey. “African-American Clergy Debate Proposition 8.” The Defenders Online. 15 December 2008. http://thedefendersonline.org/2008/12/15/african-american-clergy-debate-proposition-8/ (retrieved 20 December 2008). A consideration of statistics and African-American viewpoints, with statements from seven black ministers.
Pearson, Carlton and John Selders. “Myth of black homophobia keeps blacks and gays divided.” The Daily Voice. 18 December 2008. http://thedailyvoice.com/voice/2008/12/by-seizing-the-truth-we-seize-001447.php (retrieved 20 December 2008). An op-ed piece which strongly advocates focusing on points of intersection between gay rights and civil rights, instead of wasting energy on differences and dichotomies, which helps neither community.
Silver, Diane. “Political IQ: The great gay awakening vs. civil war.” Bay Area Reporter. 27 November 2008. http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=3528 (retrieved 2 December 2008).
Spaulding, Pam. “NYT op-ed on Prop 8, blacks and a ‘moral minority.’” Pam’s House Blend. 1 December 2008. http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8449 (retrieved 2 December 2008). A brilliant and thought-provoking response to Charle Blow’s opinion piece, listed above. The quotes about white privilege in the gay community are insightful.
Wolfson, Evan. “Letter to the editor: Do not deny a minority the right to marry.” The New York Times. 30 November 2008. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/opinion/l30gay.html?_r=2&emc=eta1 (retrieved 1 December 2008). A succinct and pithy statement. “If fundamental rights can be stripped from a minority on a mere show of hands, why bother having courts and constitutions?”
Jon Stewart and The Daily Show look at “Gays vs. Blacks.” (relevant segment at 11 minute mark)
